Blizzard is celebrating the anniversary of the franchise that has made them famous for the last 30 years: Warcraft has turned 30 years old, World of Warcraft is 20 years old. MeinMMO was able to talk to the bosses for the anniversary and reminisce a bit – but also learn exciting details from behind the scenes.
For the 30th anniversary of Warcraft, Blizzard has organized several shows and fan meetings during a worldwide tour, starting in February in London. On this occasion, we were able to speak with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas and Executive Producer and Vice President Holly Longdale.
Ion Hazzikostas has been with Blizzard since 2008 and played a major role in Wrath of the Lich King. Many bosses in Ulduar are partially thanks to him. As one of his first official acts at Blizzard, he fixed bugs that annoyed him personally.
Holly Longdale joined Blizzard in 2020 and worked mainly on WoW Classic as a Principal Game Producer and Lead Producer – which, by the way, was intentionally released with bugs. Previously, she was involved in EverQuest II.
In the interview with both bosses, we talked a bit about their experiences at Blizzard, the game’s past, and the most important pillar of WoW: the community.
Currently, WoW is about Goblins and their capital:
“We don’t have one, but two healthy, vibrant versions of World of Warcraft”
MeinMMO: “You think you do but you don’t” was one of the biggest misconceptions in video game history. What was your feedback in these nearly 6 years of WoW Classic?
Ion Hazzikostas: “It turned out that many people who thought they wanted that actually did want it. Even many people who didn’t think they wanted it wanted it.
Classic was fantastic. A reflection of the past and it has been now for five and a half years. The way it introduced a generation of players who missed World of Warcraft in 2004 and 2005 to the world, to the magic where it all began, has created its own community. One that truly wants this original version of the game. This is evidence of how much WoW as a whole has evolved over the last 20 years.
Now we have not one, but two healthy, vibrant versions of World of Warcraft that appeal to different audiences with different preferences. But they are all part of this larger WoW community.”
MeinMMO: Currently, both games are running simultaneously. With the new anniversary servers, how does it feel to see the original and the modern version of WoW right next to each other?
Holly Longdale: “Both have a completely different audience with very specific needs and requests from us. And both have their own teams that listen to their target audience and respond to them. Essentially two fully functional, independent games. And that’s how we treat them, like in the way we communicate with the communities […] and we believe we owe that to [the players]. […]
It took us a while to reach this point and understand that [the communities] are very unique and different in how they have developed.”
Ion Hazzikostas: “The game is the same as it was 20 years ago, but the way people play has changed. Modern players are just different in their level of expectations and how they approach the systems. In many ways, it was a great experiment. We released a “No Changes” version in 2019 to the best of our ability, but practically the day players came to the servers, that changed. As Holly said, we wondered how best to serve the community we found there.
This has led us from #NoChanges to #SomeChanges and further to experimental modes like Season of Discovery, which can redefine what’s possible in the Classic ecosystem – and more. That’s just one of the things about listening to the community we have and understanding their needs to provide them with the best possible offerings.”
The community was also the focus of the 30-year Warcraft tour:
“We didn’t change anything just because we thought it would be better”
MeinMMO: Your “#SomeChanges” policy was very healthy for the game and allowed people to experience WoW Classic as it felt back then, even if it’s not exactly the same as it was. How do you decide what to change?
Ion Hazzikostas: “At launch in 2019 or thereafter?”
MeinMMO: After.
Ion Hazzikostas: “Player feedback. To be completely honest, one partial reason why we stuck to ‘No Changes’ in 2019 was that we knew players didn’t believe we were capable of making changes. That was the consensus in the community. They said, ‘These modern WoW developers will just botch it.’ So we said: Okay, we will even recreate bugs that were present in the game back then. We change as little as possible. We put effort into bringing bugs into the game to keep it authentic. That at least gave us a fresh foundation as a starting point.
When we then had all the players wandering around in the Classic version of Azeroth, many concluded that there were perhaps a few things in the game that should be changed.
One of the biggest turning points was when we released The Burning Crusade. Players immediately realized that if we kept the original Paladin seals – one for the Horde, one for the Alliance – then most people would play Horde, hardly anyone Alliance. The servers would be terribly unbalanced. Players supported our decision to make both seals accessible to both factions, even though it was precisely this combat-mechanical change that we swore we would never bring – and that players demanded we would never bring. But the changes we made were almost exclusively supported by the majority of the player base.
As we further explored that going towards Burning Crusade and Wrath [of the Lich King], we shared our ideas for feedback to find out if this was something players were open to. That was by far what guided us from then on. We didn’t change anything just because we thought it would be better. Whenever we changed something, it was only because players said they were not satisfied with something and wanted us to make it better.”
Holly Longdale: “We were very aware of authenticity, I remember the team artificially slowing down the fights to mimic fights from 2004. So it feels honestly authentic. And players wondered: ‘What’s happening here?’ Because we were on the modern engine with the security features we needed.
Then players said: ‘We thought we wanted that, but we really don’t want that.’ That was when we built the conversation with the community. The Classic team has maintained that relationship since 2019 and built trust in that conversation. That’s a strong bond, even as the community has changed over time.”
“Once we release a game, it belongs to the community”
MeinMMO: The guild onlyfangs has grown through Classic on Twitch and vice versa. How significant is the role the guild has played in the revival of WoW Classic?
Ion Hazzikostas: “For the hardcore community, certainly huge. This is proof of the social component, of the power of Classic for a world where players can write their own stories. Hardcore only increases that tension further. Raising the stakes is interesting, intense, and exciting.
In a way, Classic is a very streamer-friendly version of the game due to its slowed-down pace, as you can interact with your chat while playing. There’s more space for this banter that lets so many communities flourish. And here they can do that in the context of Azeroth.”
Holly Longdale: “I think that’s another great example that once we release a game, it belongs to the community. And we can never dictate what they will do with it. Then there come moments that become memories like at onlyfangs. With the community and the events they have created. We saw this a few years ago when we opened the hardcore realm.
That’s one of those things we love about making an MMO. You never know what you’ll get when you release something.”
MeinMMO: Have you seen a significant increase in players through these streamer communities?
Ion Hazzikostas: “Difficult to say, because this all doesn’t happen at the same time. When we released Anniversary and Hardcore, many people came together with [onlyfangs] to participate in this journey. We were impressed by the strength of Hardcore as a machine that creates stories. There are so many wonderful, viral, funny, tragic stories that have emerged from people’s interactions with the world.
We were surprised by the sustained energy of Hardcore. When we first released the mode, we thought it was something that would draw initial interest, but expected players to just leave when their character died – not start anew. The number of people who simply accepted: ‘Yup. That’s how the journey of this character ends. I’ll create a new one and see what happens’, has continually astonished and enlightened us. But it has created a growing, sustainable community in an environment that seems to have nothing lasting – because every character has a limited lifespan.”
“We build opportunities for people to live a life they otherwise couldn’t”
MeinMMO: What’s the most memorable community interaction you’ve had in the last 20 years?
Ion Hazzikostas: “It’s hard to pick just one. I’ll connect a few examples of people I’ve met at BlizzCons over the years. Those were often couples with their little child who just wanted to thank us as developers for their relationship and the child that is with them. That was always a reminder of the power of World of Warcraft to bring people together, to create social bonds.
Seeing families that literally only exist because the parents met playing WoW, say, while camping a rare spawn in Mists [of Pandaria] or chatting with the healer while waiting for a dungeon group only to marry three years later. Each of these stories is incredibly touching and a reminder of how lucky we are to be able to do what we do. And that success in our work brings joy to people and connects them.”
Holly Longdale: “Did you want to know what the most touching moment was?”
MeinMMO: Just the one that has stuck with you the most.
Holly Longdale: “What has been on my mind the most over the last year or two is the influence of Ibelin. He is sort of the focal point of what it means to have a greater significance. Of course, there was the Netflix documentary, but also our involvement. We played a small role in providing assets for the animations and the film.
But the fact that we had such an impact on the life of an individual that they could lead a significant life because of the work our team did on a fantasy game, that they weren’t alone … We received letters from other people who have muscular atrophy or are differently abled. It’s moments in life and this business where you realize: Yes, we make entertainment, but we build opportunities for people to live a life they otherwise couldn’t and they build friendships they otherwise wouldn’t have. That makes one proud to be able to do such a thing.
That one can make an impact through this funny, this beauty and this wonder, this place we call Azeroth, that has real meaning for someone. We can’t forget to be proud of that, while we have Goblins in racing cars […] It is a reminder that most of the time it’s a blessing that we can do what we do.”
The fantastic life of Ibelin
is a doc from WoW about a terminally ill boy who was able to live a completely different life in WoW:
WoW should be a place “where you can find friends”
MeinMMO: The community is an ambiguous topic. Some say it’s super friendly, others find it hellishly toxic. Recently you said you want to reward positive behavior. What should that look like?
Holly Longdale: “As the leading group, that is Ion, I, and the other executives – actually the whole team, we know that the internet and social spheres can be a pretty dark place. We want to ensure that the future of World of Warcraft is a safe place, a place where you can find friends and have healthy relationships.
Part of that is not only protecting our players from toxicity but helping people find friends, supporting them in being positive, and rewarding them with great experiences in the game. That means, just as we determine what we want to prioritize bringing into the game – a zone, a dungeon – we want to prioritize the social aspects as well. We want to bring positive things for the community to engage with […] Ion and his team are already working on that, but we want to focus on that again because we think that’s important.”
Ion Hazzikostas: “There are two aspects to this issue. Toxicity, as you called it. It’s no secret that a small group of people in any social network can have a huge impact that harms the experience of many others. So we are improving our enforcement and detection mechanisms against hateful bile, personal attacks directed at people.
But beyond that, I think that the word toxicity is quite overused. People use it for every negative interaction they have. But negative interactions can happen for which no one is really to blame. That’s just a deviation from expectations.
For example, in a dungeon group. There are people who know the dungeon, want to rush through, and look for people who are at their level of knowledge. Then there is someone who is more of a beginner, wants to learn, and is looking for a patient group who doesn’t mind if something goes wrong. If you put these two people together, both are frustrated, neither is happy, and no one is really at fault. They just both have a certain expectation of finding like-minded players.
And I think we can do a lot here to build positive social connections. Whether it’s improving group search and filtering options or how you add friends in the game and recommend like-minded players. Those are all ways to prevent this so-called “toxicity” by simply bringing together people who have the same goals and expectations. Of course, while we continue to pay attention to those who are really just poisoning the community and should be better removed because of their behavior.”
MeinMMO: Sounds a bit like you want to build a social network within WoW.
Ion Hazzikostas: “Exactly.”
WoW already has a… unique community:
“The success of WoW is a reflection of what Blizzard invested there in the early years”
MeinMMO: I would like to dive a bit deeper into the story and the past of Warcraft. Two of the biggest games in the world, League of Legends and Dota 2, have emerged from Warcraft 3. If you had the chance now, would you have released Heroes of the Storm when Dota first appeared as a mod?
Ion Hazzikostas: “That’s a tricky question for both of us, because we weren’t in a position to. Since we’ve been at Blizzard, we’ve only worked on World of Warcraft. […] But I’d like to correct you briefly, three of the biggest games in the world have emerged from Warcraft 3: League, Dota, and World of Warcraft.
And that was Blizzard’s priority for quite some time. I wasn’t at the company when WoW first launched in 2004, I was in line to get a box and play at home. But back then there were already stories about how Blizzard was doing everything they could to meet the demand: expanding the team, acquiring more servers, expanding offices. Because this game, which they thought would sell a few hundred thousand copies, ultimately sold a few million.
In hindsight and with today’s knowledge, we can certainly say that different decisions could have been made. But I think Blizzard’s focus for a long time was World of Warcraft. And where the game is today is largely thanks to that circumstance. The success of WoW is a reflection of what Blizzard invested there in the early years. […]
MeinMMO: Honestly, I never thought about WoW just having a higher priority – and as you said, rightly so. I don’t know if you can tell me anything about this, but looking at the fact that tabletop games are currently making a comeback, are there plans to revive the already existing – and canceled – WoW tabletop?
Holly Longdale: “Not at the moment.”
Ion Hazzikostas: “There are no specific plans, but we are of course always looking for ways to pull more people into the Warcraft universe. However, right now we don’t have anything to talk about.”
By the way, there was a special music act during the anniversary tour, the dwarf metal band Wind Rose:
“The first worm I killed replaced my raid gear”
MeinMMO: Let’s go back to WoW! How did you experience the release of the first WoW expansion The Burning Crusade in 2007?
Ion Hazzikostas: “I started at Blizzard in the summer of 2008. So I experienced 2007 by trying to get through the Dark Portal and staring at loading screens for about 20-30 minutes to get to Hellfire Peninsula. Then I took a few days off and spent many, many hours exploring this wonderful, alien world of the Outland, which was so different from everything I knew of Azeroth until then.
That might be one of my favorite WoW memories. Of course, I have worked on World of Warcraft for many years, but [The Burning Crusade] was the only expansion I could dive into blind. With every one thereafter, I was already in the company and when I played them on day one, all the wonders and surprises simply weren’t the same as with The Burning Crusade.”
Holly Longdale: “I took my Night Elf Hunter and the first worm I killed replaced my raid gear. That really made me angry. So I stopped playing that character, started a Draenei, and fell in love immediately. […]
I was so angry, so angry! But I enjoyed the expansion afterward a lot. In the end, that was the beginning of my journey to becoming an Altoholic, just playing all the different races and classes and becoming an expert on Alliance and Horde.”
MeinMMO: When you came to Blizzard, what was the first thing you changed?
Ion Hazzikostas: “I had way too much to learn to be able to change anything. I remember I started shortly before Wrath of the Lich King was released. I worked on that for two months before release. As someone who had been quite a hardcore raider before, one of the first things I wanted to learn but couldn’t change was how certain boss mechanics choose targets. I could never understand that as a player. I looked at everything in the scripts. To understand how a boss selects its targets for specific abilities. […]
There were a couple of bugs that I fixed. I don’t remember exactly what they were, but I know they annoyed me as a player. So I searched for them in the database and taught myself how to fix them.
It was an incredible journey from someone who spent thousands of hours playing the game to someone who truly understands how it all works from the inside out. Learning and being taught how to create new experiences for players. I started as an encounter designer and was lucky enough to work on some bosses in the Ulduar raid. I fell in love with the job immediately and never looked back.”
Holly Longdale: “I mean [laughs] this comes from the naive perspective of an outsider who found herself in the strange position of doing something with great partners like Ion. As a player coming from a different team and a different game. I’m wholeheartedly a casual player, I love every WoW holiday, every event, and I always have. Those times are the ones I cherish the most.
And I always wanted WoW to get a live event team. That took a while, but when I finally got to team up with Ion and we could create a live team to make more stuff. It became much larger and better than I could have ever imagined. And they’re really good at it. […] I think players like that, especially things like “casual” events, the vibrant world, and how Azeroth itself lives. I think that’s going really well.
That’s part of this journey that leads us into the future. There will always be something to do in Azeroth.”
MeinMMO: Thank you for your time!
In the last 20 years, Blizzard has continuously developed World of Warcraft and the next two addons are already in development as part of the current trilogy. What comes next? We will see. However, you may be able to expect more than just games: Head of Blizzard opens door to a second movie about Warcraft or a WoW series like Arcane
