In the interview, we had the opportunity to ask Blizzard’s Art Director Ben Thompson and Senior Game Designer Peter Whalen about Hearthstone’s new expansion Goblins and Catacombs. How they evaluate the random effects, how it looks with the secrets of other classes, and what their favorite aspects of the expansion are, you can find out here.
During the interview, the two turned out to be very communicative, and the smiles in the picture were definitely not just for the camera. You can tell that they are wholeheartedly committed to their game, and this enthusiasm permeates our conversation even when it comes to sensitive questions.
From Idea to Realization
Mein-MMO: With Goblins and Catacombs, the seventh expansion of Hearthstone is now on the way! Where do you get your ideas for new content? What inspires you the most?
Peter: Sometimes one person simply has an idea and can quickly get the team excited. Other times, we really call the whole team together and brainstorm together. When we pitch our ideas, sometimes extremely quirky ideas come up.
What was the craziest idea?
Peter: Maybe the “Hot Dog Expansion.” Someone had a wacky idea for an expansion centered around cooking and eating. Since the idea emerged in summer, it quickly turned into a beach barbecue party in our minds. Hot dogs were the central element! It was a great pitch, but we ultimately decided against it.
Ben: It’s always a fun and inspired time that the team looks forward to the most. Of course, one wants to play the end product as well, but when everyone is sitting together and the room is bursting with ideas, it creates a very special atmosphere in the team. This is also because we do not consider any idea to be inherently bad, and we have a very healthy work environment.
Very often, someone says: “We should definitely not do it this way, but…!” and then comes up with the Hot Dog expansion or other crazy ideas. But it is from exactly such fixed ideas that our best developments often emerge! You never know where even the worst idea will lead you. And that is pretty cool!
Goblins & Catacombs – a classic Dungeon Run!
What exactly is the story behind Goblins and Catacombs?
Peter: Goblins and Catacombs is one of those ideas that everyone immediately jumped on enthusiastically. Someone called out, “What if we use the idea of a bag full of treasures?” Combined with our Dungeon Run, it was simply a wonderful idea. Who doesn’t love the idea of hunting for the shiniest treasure?
Originally, the expansion was supposed to revolve around the treasure bot Blingtron from World of Warcraft. But the more we thought about it, the more we liked the idea of a classic fantasy dungeon crawl. Going down into a dungeon with friends, kicking in doors, battling nasty monsters, and looting treasures – that’s what we wanted!
It makes the most sense to use goblins. They love gold, live in caves and catacombs, and have a fondness for their candles! They are fantastic companions to guide us down the dungeon and throughout the expansion to discover all the new things! And of course, there will be plenty of candle references!
Ben: Yes… one, or two, or twenty, or so…
With this expansion, Rogues finally get their secrets – will all classes soon have secrets?
Peter: No, that’s not currently planned. It just fits with the Rogue: He likes to steal, which is why some of his secrets are reminiscent of the Paladin’s. But those also fit wonderfully with the Rogue himself.
Currently, we don’t see which other classes could use secrets. Maybe something fitting will come our way someday, but it’s not planned.
What aspects of Goblins and Catacombs do you like the most?
Ben: I personally really like the new legendary weapons. Especially now, as Warlocks and Mages can also have weapons. Finally, I can create weapon decks with them! That sounds very promising to me. It allows for interesting deck types that simply haven’t existed before.
Peter: I’m most looking forward to the Dungeon Runs, no question! It’s this completely new single-player mode that also has high replay value. It’s just a lot of fun! Every time you have different experiences.
The first thing I will do with the new expansion is grab one of the heroes, take them into the dungeon, and level them up from scratch! I want the loot box and the card back you get when you complete the run with all classes. I’m very much looking forward to this mode!
Point of Contention: Random Effects
Many players dislike RNG – that Hearthstone often relies on random effects. How do you handle this issue in the new expansion?
Peter: We talk about this often, as it’s one of the cornerstones of Hearthstone. It is, after all, a card game, and a certain amount of randomness simply belongs to it. Many people like it, it adds to the fun of the game. No game is the same because of this. Ultimately, it’s also part of a HS player’s skill set to respond well to random effects.
Hearthstone features various random effects. We have the simple drop randomness common to any other card game and the random effects of the cards themselves. Which random effects do we want to add to cheap cards and which to expensive ones? With Goblins and Catacombs, I think we’ve found a good way.
For example, the new legendary card “Deck of Wonders“: It’s totally crazy! When cards like these are played, they can turn the game again. The Deck of Wonders shuffles 5 scrolls into your deck and casts a random spell when drawn.
Such cards we’ve set at a lower power level, as it’s just unpredictable. Maybe the player who plays it might also end up with a huge disadvantage due to the randomly cast spell!
Other cards like “Unstable Evolution” or the “Unidentified Cards” are less extensive in their effect. The latter always produce a base effect that can be planned to a small extent: They always grant some kind of bonus.
This is a smaller random effect. It results in the game becoming simply more fun and allows players to express themselves more with their decks. Players at a higher level will be able to gain more advantages from these effects than new or casual players.
Recruiting is another good example. You generally have a high degree of control over your deck, how you build it, and how many random effects you actually want. Recruiting is just as random as you want it to be. You draw a minion from the deck, but you ultimately build it too. If you want to recruit a specific creature like the Lich King, you only put that in the deck.
So you have control over what this effect actually does. This kind of randomness presents us with a high power level. It creates a situation where players have a significant influence. Randomness is definitely one of the topics we often discuss internally and intensively.
Point of Contention: Costs
To be successful again quickly after a new expansion, players need a lot of time and patience. Some speculate that you have to be rich to afford Hearthstone anymore. Do you also believe one must be rich to succeed at Hearthstone?
Peter: It also depends on the playstyle. If you only have one or two favorite heroes, it will be easier to snag all the important cards for your deck and your playstyle. You don’t need every card. For people who want to play every class, it’s more difficult.
My advice is always: try out which class suits you best and focus on that first. The rest will come over time. And of course we have single-player content and the brawl. There, you don’t need purchased cards; you can just dive into the fray. And ultimately, you can earn the necessary virtual coins through quests and reaching higher ranks in the brawl to buy cards.
Imagine you were cards in Hearthstone – which ones would you be and why?
Peter: Can I say Reno Jackson?! I think I would be him! I’m not sure if I would really like him, but he looks like he enjoys everything! He just has so much fun with life! He is a bit oblivious to his surroundings, and sure, sometimes bad things happen to him. But he smiles through it, and I think that’s a great way to live.
Ben: I would join the Explorer’s League just to hang out more with Peter, but I think I would actually be Elise Starseeker. We both are fascinated by historical facts. I love traveling to historical places to better understand the roots and experience things firsthand. We are quite similar in that way.
“J.R.R. Tolkien could have beaten me”
Against which people – real or fictional – would you like to compete in a Fireside Gathering?
Ben: Definitely Elon Musk. [An entrepreneur and investor who founded the private space company SpaceX] We know he knows Hearthstone and that his children play it too. I would love to see how good he is and try my luck!
Peter: I choose Michael Morhaime first! Have you ever played against him, Ben?! He is Blizzard’s CEO and plays a lot of Hearthstone. He plays against the Twitch CEO at TwitchCon every year, and I think it would be fun to play against him and see what he thinks!
And Gul’Dan! That would be super dangerous… because he wouldn’t be a good loser! As an opponent, he might not be so dangerous, but if he loses, I’d rather leave the room before he sucks my soul out! Or maybe against game designers from other genres! Sid Meier, for example, just to see how they would approach the game.
Ben: Otherwise, if the impossible were possible, I would still like to challenge J.R.R Tolkien. I am a huge fan of his books and definitely the biggest “Lord of the Rings” nerd ever! At least from the Blizzard team.
Do you think Tolkien would be good at this game?
Ben: He is a master of linguistics! But when it comes to video games… I’m not sure how well he would fare. He might have a chance, because I am absolutely not good at math. So yes, he was a bright mind, so I think he could beat me.
In the course of time
Are you satisfied with the development that Hearthstone has undergone over the years?
Ben: Oh yes! We are both very excited and humbled by the feedback we have received so far. Every year has been different and brought different impulses. Not only have the expansions grown increasingly creative, such as the disco party in the Mage Tower, but the team itself has also grown to meet the challenges, which is exciting to see.
Trying out new things like the Fireside Gatherings is a big deal for us. Most of the time, we just add details to the existing game.
Can you give us a glimpse of the upcoming expansion?
Ben: There will be even cooler stuff coming…! [laughs] For us as a team, it’s simply important to surprise ourselves with the new expansions – we are excited to see what comes next!
Find out here what our 5 favorite cards from Goblins and Catacombs are.
